Discussion Grounds

Greetings, Luke,

Well, at least we found some further grounds for agreement, even if not as much as I had predicted. I want to make sure I understand some aspects of what you just wrote.

1. You word it thus: “Moral values exist, and they are objectively true in that their truth value does not depend on human beliefs about them.” That leaves me wondering whether you think moral values would exist, and their truth values would remain, even if there were no humans.
2. You say humans have an inner sensation that moral values exist, yet you do not want to accept my proposed statement that humans have a sense of responsibility relating to at least some of those values. I’m wondering how that makes sense.
3. I can accept this in this form.
4. I think based on one commenter’s response that “contra-causal” requires definition. I think you probably mean it in the sense of being independent of the course of natural law and/or chance.
5. This is fine in this form.
6. Same.
7. I think you have weakened this considerably beyond what is true.
8. I have not read Wild Justice, but I cannot imagine that it any animal has a conception of rightness or wrongness that “distantly approaches” that of humans.
9. Same. I do not know of any animals trying to build their own character in a moral, vocational or other sense,
10. We can point to some increasing awareness of moral right and wrong over the millennia, and there are certainly pockets of increasing moral rightness, but the 20th century was by far the most murderous in history, slavery still abounds in major parts of the world, there’s no evidence that persons are more honest today than they were in the days of Plato or the Buddha, and there’s not much evidence (apart from the influence of religion on individuals) that persons are any less self-serving now than then.

Which worldview offers the better explanation of our world: Christianity or atheism? Is that the focus of our debate?

Recognizing that we might not come to full agreement, yes, that’s how I’m viewing it.

(P.S. I’m at the eye doctor’s office with my eyes dilated. The world looks weird, as usual in this situation. I’ll keep this short until I can really see again!)